A review of the election

The impact of the election on current next steps

Well, my life has changed. With Abbott in the driving seat, Australia is a different place to the one I have been ruminating about for the last few years. Here is a summation of some realities I am going to have to come to terms with, as the 'next three year' period commences:

Royalism vs republicanism

My reason for spending a great deal of time setting up the BloggerMe website is that I had a picture in my mind of regular unabated and progressive movement towards Australia becoming a republic. Most of my friends were very sceptical about the 2020 Summit, and saw it as a Rudd extravaganza; an event that would have little or no practical outcome. I was aware of its deficiencies but saw it as part of an inevitable long term progression, towards the 'maturation of the nation'.

For me, the political/social/historical reasons for the maintenance of the British monarchy in Australia had long since passed, and since the 80s when the legal ties between the States and the British parliament had been repealed, there were serious complexities and incongruities in the legal functioning of the Constitution of the Commonwealth that needed to be resolved.

The replacement as PM of the royalist Howard with the pragmatic Rudd, I saw as a natural progression towards my pictured goal.

And the replacement of Brendan Nelson with Malcolm Turnbull further added to my idea of 'inevitable progress'.

Racism vs Indigenous rights

I also had in my mind the normalisation of and improvement generally in understanding of indigenous rights. I had in my mind Keating's Redfern declaration, the progressive thinking of a Liberal Party ex-prime minister Fraser (now a proper liberal), the commitment of Rudd to the statement of "sorry", which Howard had always said he would not do, and the election of the progressive Malcolm Turnbull, as leader of the Liberal Party.

Of course there were real anomalies there that I wasn’t taking into account.

Rudd pulled off the "I'm sorry" statement, but there were few progressive developments running parallel to it that gave one any sense of any real reparations, and I have always said, throughout my life, that you can't have one without the other.

For those countries whose past has in it the appropriation of land and genocide and crimes against humanity (and there are many of those, Australia is just one of many), you can say you're sorry all you like, but unless the declaration is coupled with real changes; a proper change to the 'quality of life' and 'human dignity', a real change to the numbers in 'imprisonment' and 'deaths in custody', a proper recognition of association with 'place', a proper change to the concept of 'ownership', a proper recognition of serious 'acts of genocide' in the past and some form of compensation for 'crimes against humanity', they are simply words on a bit of paper. Important words, but unless the words are just the first step in a real process of some form of reparation, just words, nonetheless.

So I was giving the ALP far too much leeway to say nice words but to fail to deliver.

And whilst the Gillard government was succeeding, on a number of important fronts, to make some real inroads, such as the strength of the Australian economy during GFC, the re-writing of the employment contract after the Howard Work Choices debacle, the introduction of  the NBN, the introduction of socially progressive policy in health/education/aging/disability, the introduction of some tools to modify Australia's contribution to global warming, they were failing on a number of serious matters, that I would never have expected someone like myself to accept.

The intervention

The first clear failure was their seeming inability to understand or do anything about the Intervention.

Howard had introduced the Intervention, in 2007, an open attack on human rights (a failure to respect those as detailed in the UN Charter), in a cynical manoeuvre, similar to the 'Children Overboard' fiasco, an attempt to shift the blame for the failures in his government to take action on 'quality of life', 'third world life expectancy', and 'imprisonment' issues of indigenous populations.

The election was coming in 2007. His party was under serious strife in the polls and he was a smart and ruthless player.

He associated the 'quality of life' issues with special needs of indigenous populations, best described by their misuse of alcohol and the associated rape of minors.

Howard's Racism

For me this was just racism; a glib portrayal of a separate race of people whose "fragile bodies and simple minds (see Note below) are incapable of dealing with the realities of modern life".

For me, that concept was completely false and if you read a bit of history that concept had been promoted by a colonial ruling class from the beginning, had been around since the first days of the colony; and had been used to justify enormous crimes against humanity, from the beginning of settlement right up until very recently, with Aboriginal voting rights coming in 1967 and the removal of children only finding some closure in the 1970s.

Howard's shipping in of armies into the north in 2007 to modify the intake of alcohol and protect the children from "rampant sexual abuse", to control personal life in Aboriginal communities in the north, to control their access to their own money and their personal right to purchase, was a throw back to the past. It was going back to controlling the water holes, using aboriginal labour and paying for it with bread and bickies, and bringing back the concept of removal of children. But Howard's act was cynical, now more directed at the Labor Party and south-eastern voters, who have always been sold simple characterisations of social complexities; to move focus away from his own failure to deliver in the south and replace the real dissatisfaction of voters in Howard in the south, with a bit of racism in the north.

ALP's acceptance of Intervention, also racist

This tactic failed and Howard got booted out, and well-done the electorate. But instead of taking Howard on, and showing him up for the racist that he was, his abuse of human rights in a cynical attempt to try to influence the election, the ALP appeared to take the bait, hook line and sinker, and, when they got into power in 2007, they continued the Interventionist policy, as if Howard had had proper intentions and had gotten the policy framework right from the outset. This put them into a world that has a clear link back to the colonialism of the past and directly called into question the "I'm sorry" public routines that had given Rudd the moral highground.

UN right to asylum vs illegal

The other clear failure was the boat people. Neither Rudd nor Gillard nor any of their ministers seemed to be able to take a progressive stance on Australia's UN responsibility to offer asylum to a proper share of the huge populations on the move around the globe.

Illegal vs unlawful

For me, both Rudd and Gillard knew that it was not illegal to seek asylum, and that Australia had clear responsibilities under the UN Convention. Such matters are just matters of fact, clearly dealt with in Australian legislation and properly explained in the associated government papers on the Convention and the key Act.

If any MP continued with illegality claims, (s)he did so with the full knowledge of his/her lie, and did it to seek influence over an ignorant audience for political gain. Whenever any MP did that, they needed to be taken on, and told the legal realities, and brought into line. Rudd, Gillard and relevant ministers seemed to lack the will or the guts to take them on.

Comparatively minor

And they knew that, because of our isolation, the numbers coming to us seeking asylum were reasonably light (even with the big increases, which everyone saw as policy-failures) when compared to other countries, including poor third world countries with few resources to throw at the problem. Where our numbers were in the thousands and then the tens of thousands, other poor countries were copping hundreds of thousands, sometimes even millions.

Asylum not true?

And they knew that almost all asylum seekers, given proper access to the courts and able to be properly assessed, actually turn out to be asylum seekers, despite continual effort, by people who should know better, to portray them as selfish economic migrants, seeking to take jobs away from the locals.

Lack of leadership

Rudd, Gillard, Evans, Burke, etc all seemed unwilling to become political 'leaders', to systematically explain to an ignorant audience the nature of asylum and the character of Australia's responsibilities, and the realities we face on the ground across the world, for fear of being humiliated by the media pundits looking for any shit that will stick, to make them look incapable of protecting Australia from the coming hordes (it reminded me of the domino theories of the 60s that had hordes streaming in from the north).

So, Labor policy changes were prepared with nasty, negative Liberal MPs in mind, rather than a proper long standing signed UN Convention, and tried to tell an ignorant audience what they wanted to hear. By doing so they dragged Australian political life into the gutter.

Progressive future or am I deluding myself?

These were my ideas, throughout the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd days. But, with all this attitude, I still had a problem in understanding my own reality.

Of course, on reflection, now that they are gone, I realise that these failures said something quite real about the nature of the governments under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd and it seems obvious, now, that I should have been more realistic as to what that meant for my dreams of progressive change.

And on the conservatives' side, the progressive leader Turnbull only lasted a year. It is now obvious, that, although Abbott only won by one vote (so there must be quite a few progressives in the Liberal Party) there was no way back for the progressives.

Abbott to me was a royalist imbecile, whose time had come. A leftover from the past. I always saw him as a temporary fix; someone who had nothing to offer, someone who couldn’t care less about anything but his own transformation into high office, which he assumed was rightfully his, and which I assumed he was incapable of holding.

For me, Abbott was someone who would be replaced when he had done the job of trashing every initiative taken by Gillard, refusing to support any progressive idea, and painting all the enormous successes of the strong economy (which no other 1st world economy had been able to achieve) as an unnecessary fiscal deficit which Labor was setting up for future generations and future non-Labor governments to clean up. I knew it was a lie but I dealt with by projecting my own analysis on the situation.

This meant that while I was prepared to live with Labor's failures, and waited patiently for changes that never came, the lack of policy on Abbott's part and his seeming inability to offer anything but negativity, and his stupid mistakes and gaffes and lack of political rigour caused me to write him off as a potential leader capable of taking over the reins of power. I always pictured someone like Turnbull stepping on to the scene at a future date to again take the nation forward. I could not have been further from the reality of the game being played out.

It is now obvious that Abbott will be the next prime minister and that he will lead in his own way, and will be have as much prospect as any other leader, who comes into the job with weaknesses and learns on the job. And, on governments of the past, we will have to surmise that he will have two terms in which to make serious mistakes, and set us back, or learn to become a fine political leader, worthy of respect.

Issues arising

My quiet confidence in the need for and likelihood of progressive change needs now to be seriously revised; I don’t know what all the answers are, but I have a pretty good handle on the issues arising:

The NBN

For me, as a small business operator, the NBN is one of the key issues arising from Tony Abbott being elected as Australia's next prime minister. The NBN is fundamental to the future of life in Australia. It's a bit like electricity at the beginning of the 20th century. The NBN project introduced by Labor was like the projects that began in the 1930s to get electricity into every household in the country. So, since it has all happened before, we know quite a lot about what is going to happen.

But I have to be realistic.

Murdoch is largely responsible for Abbott's success yesterday.

He's not responsible for Labor's lack of unity and the undermining from within which is largely the reason why Labor was so on the nose in the electorate.

But Murdoch was responsible for any initiative to unify the ALP being largely ignored by the MSM and for Abbott being given such an easy ride without any significant analysis or interrogation by journalists working in the MSM. And with virtually no policies, and no competence to explain any policy, and no work done to plan or cost any policy initiatives, Abbott might also have been on the nose, if Murdoch had not been there to completely change the focus in the run up to the election.

Murdoch supported Abbott because of Labor's success with the NBN.

Murdoch could see the likely impact of the NBN on his newspapers and on Foxtel.

Murdoch needs more time to finalise a broad plan to take his entire empire into the future. He needs this time to make significant changes while still able to make considerable profit.

And Abbott will have to deliver.

Turnbull understands the impact of the NBN on Australia. While Abbott is ignorant of these matters, and has little idea of the huge disservice he is doing to families and to small business, Abbott has continually sidelined Turnbull and forced him into line, by making Turnbull the relevant minister. Turnbull's reading of the policy statement after it was published is a clear indicator as to how much impact Turnbull can have on his portfolio.

Murdoch's requirement for quid pro quo means we can write off the prospect of progressive changes in NBN for at least two terms. Murdoch needs as little progress in this domain as can possibly be viable.

So there is a serious sense in which the claim by Abbott that he will seek to rule for all Australians is rubbish.

As far as NBN is concerned, Abbott is ruling for one man, a man whose interests are best defined as those of an international plutocrat with no ethical concerns, capable of any action that is in his interests to perform, regardless of the laws of the particular country in which he finds himself, and a man who is not even an Australian. An international billionaire plutocrat who is a citizen of another country is the last person a voter, an association, an MP, a Senator, a government department can expect to have any impact or influence over. He is untouchable and a law unto himself.

Generational change in the ALP

This abandonment of the NBN is a serious price for ordinary voters, and especially small business, to pay for Labor's political mistake. So we want Rudd's personal contribution to political instability recognised openly in the party; we want Rudd gone, out of parliament, in the same way that Gillard so gracefully achieved, without any need for involvement of others. And if he won't leave parliament, we want him chucked out of the ALP, to sit on the cross benches, so that that instability can never happen again. It seems a harsh thing to do to a man who has served the party twice as prime minister but anything less would continue to undermine true generational change, so necessary at this point within the ALP.

Where should Rudd go?

For me, the best place for Rudd to go is the UN or China. There, he would be capable of significant contribution to Australia's interests as a nation, in a way that he could not if he was here, trying to find a place for himself in Australia. He would enjoy it, and do well.

This appointment can only come from Abbott. This doesn’t cost the country, as those positions need to be filled in any case. It's in Abbott's own interests as a new leader for there to be a real break with the past, and he too would benefit from true generational change within the Opposition. And there are significant traditions that Abbott can call upon, to justify such an appointment. So, if Abbott is serious about ruling for all Australians, that is one thing that he can get on to straight away.

Abbott & real change

On asylum seekers, Tony Abbott, with no policies of his own, simply made the same mistakes as Labor but with a more shrill tone, in an attempt to appear tougher, again playing to a distressed and ignorant audience.

And he made a few stupid gaffes along the way.

Whether Abbott can bring about real change, in the next two terms, and move Australia towards becoming a more humane society, one capable of removing imprisonment from the agenda, one capable of understanding our rights and responsibilities under the UN Charter, one capable of welcoming a realistic reasonable quota (based on the realities across the world) of real asylum seekers with open arms and a true wish for integration into the community, only time will tell.

You've got to assume that he is incapable of such change, on past statements, and past performance, but the realities of office have yet to hit home, and, since he has no policies, it is impossible to say at this point.

Climate change - Abbott is a sceptic

There are some real dangers for Australia in having Abbott at the helm.

One thing we don't need at this point is to go back to the beginning on climate change. There have been some minor developments and some real progress, to date. These can be easily squandered if change is introduced without thought in the interests of the polluters.

It will be difficult for Abbott not to squander them because of the use he made of this issue in the one liners he used as a substitute for real policy development. There will be interests crying out from all sides in an attempt to influence him on this matter.

Our only hope is that Abbott is capable of real transformation to take himself above these interests and rule in the interests of the nation.

He has made it pretty clear he is a climate change sceptic. Just like the issue of abortion when he was Health Minister, it is important that he rules without reference to his personal scepticism (and that held by interested MPs on his team) but in accordance with science and the key scientists advising the government.

Abbott supported the referendum (but not really)

One issue that is important to BloggerMe is the Referendum to introduce Australia's local government layer into the Constitution.

We have been watching with interest

  • the crisis in the High Court,
  • Labor's initiation of the change to overcome the crisis,
  • their strategic funding to give the key local government association the major role in selling the referendum to the electorate, and
  • then their sidelining it and dropping it altogether as their internal machinations engulfed them, yet again.

We watched with interest as Abbott initially agreed to a bi-partisan approach, giving public support to the Referendum, and then watched him go cold on the idea, and then begin to undermine his own support with new statements telling people to act according to conscience.

We assume that this Referendum will not see the light of day, under an Abbott government.

There are real dangers in letting this problem in the High Court go unresolved.

The key problem is to allow States to dominate the funding of local government by the federal parliament, leading to increased power and influence by the State, with no pragmatic reason or benefit arising from their involvement. It is not in the interests of the federal government or local government for the state government to control this relationship. We are the rare case of having a real interest in the outcome whilst not being a local government body.

Comments

Would they have him Steve?

Yes, they would have him. He did an excellent job on the international scene, While G20 was set up under Howard, mainly under Costello's guidance, it was mainly a think tank; Rudd played a major role during negotiations to turn it into a summit between key leaders, and had excellent influence in G20. On China, he had many years of good working relationship with the Chinese government working for the Dept of Foreign Affairs before becoming Prime Minister. He had a number of interactions with China as PM. He seemed to get the balance right between diplomatic responsibility and telling it like it is. They respected him but they knew exactly where he was coming from. It is important we don't write people off! If an ex-PM of his calibre represented Australia in the UN, it would set a new standard, both for country and the UN.

The thoughts expressed in my original lost message by this name are fading from memory.  This was the gist I think. Somewhere in between another go at this was lost when a tea cup bumped the return key so perhaps you would delete that if it has gone your way Steve.

From the first acceptance of a place for tribal law within our system of justice we have not sought to establish that either the source of judgment or nature of punishment or recourse be 'traditional.' We have not sought this because indigenous communities are in various states of change and the rate of change can be quite quick.

Among those relatively few permitted to exercise a degree of traditional law some groups may have quite different forms of 'governance' to those they carried less than a half century ago. Individuals within the groups may carry authority which they would never otherwise have had. In some areas democratic approaches may displace traditional approaches. This is all as it should be. People change and often too need to change. It is pleasing that there has been some acceptance of both that and of the value in limited local law in the wider community.

If we accept local law and the nature of change in the communities we must also accept that our role may change according to their ways of calling for support and for the nature of that. Use of local law itself can be seen as one rule for some and not for others. it is. But it is so because of special needs of and special pressures on integrated cultures where management of their particular affairs at this level can greatly assist.

Naturally, you may be correct when you say that someone managed to find someone in the communities who would support the intervention making justification sound rational. Your distaste for the approach would then be shared by most. I simply suggest that whether the indication was favourably filtered by media or government or otherwise, it appeared to me that many within the communities sought intervention. In the instance of some nasty treatment of people who could not defend themselves it was not really a matter of standing around counting the numbers but of assessing the general level of support for action within each community. It was a matter also of taking guidance from those communites. If it is true that a substantial interest in intervention existed then it should be seen as self-instigated support to local governance or law rather than something imposed. If substantial community support is given, not to see it in that light is tantamount to saying there is no right to or value in limited self-governance. 

   

My comment was about the federal government and international law, and the responsibility of the government to guarantee the human rights of its citizens. {PS, I have done a summation of these in my dictionary on ethics http://www.docdownload.com.au/document/content.psp?group=corporate,25577... } It was not about local law or customs. Even if the application of some local law resulted in an appeal to the government to treat Indigenous people in a manner that removed from them well established human rights (which it has not), I would say the government has no right to do so and must uphold basic human rights as fundamental to all of its citizens.

Steve,

I respect that you will not move on the position that a government has a duty to uphold all the human rights of its citizens. I reply to put the earlier comment in clearer context and to suggest that these rights are a mix of rights where precedence does exist and where the quality of some can be said to be advancing.

[Here follows a detailed reference to every line in the reference I provided to the UN Declaration of human rights in an obtuse attempt to prove that I am wrong - outside the scope of the above article.]  A note to Ian, we can have have this argument at some point but it won't be here. If you think I am wrong about the Intervention being a cynical removal of basic human rights by Howard in the lead up to the 2007 election, you are entitled to that opinion, but it is uninteresting to me. If you think that there has been no removal of basic human rights by the Intervention, then you need to do some serious reading on the UN's Declaration before we have that debate. If you think everything I am doing needs to be questioned and proven to be incorrect, then you should spend your time talking on other blogsites. Cheers SI

Your final paragraph on the nature of Tony Abbott and for that matter the nature of all Prime ministers and their personal task is the correct one I reckon Steve. Tony Abbot has come a long way since his days as the primary attach dog. He may not have settled into the Prime Ministership or even fully into the party leadership but he has taken on change and is likely to continue to do so. Some will like only some outcomes, some others, rational judgment of the overall is a long way off.

We do seem to expect take-away leadership but in reality, thankfully, all learn in the job. As you say our taste for what they learn usually seems to fade in something more than 3, something less than 6 years.

I wonder what Mr. Turnbull would have learnt.

[So...more agreement. This is getting sick]

I'm a good man, really. We can agree to agree as well!

I am not sure that an earlier comment got through as I may have forgotten to add to the 'your name' field. It fielded the view that responsibility extends widely. As response is inherently finite it should be managed for maximum effectiveness. As there are other than human elements requiring responsibility it requires careful balance.

In my own State, Tasmania it had been decreed by individuals, State and Federal government that a major proportion should remain wilderness. I am going to throw in numbers but just to illustrate, I have no idea of actual limitation on carrying capacity with current technology and less with current social desire. If the present 512,000 population could be double, perhaps it could triple if we accessed/used wilderness areas. There would then be places for another million people. Presumably it would be possible to fill that almost overnight with people who are oppressed or otherwise not content with their home country. What would that do?

It would radically alter the evolution of our own way of acting in community. That may not be a bad thing but it may also obscure the capability of this group to effect a solution or part solution to the human condition. (This state did make a significant contribution to the Green agenda world wide, you can like or dislike that but it does indicate the possibility that groupings of this scale and of particular social and environmental circumstance can help effect approaches that may have broader value.)

It would relax pressure for change in the home country. 

It would create more space for population growth in the home country so that the 1 million influx would be the slightest one-off blip in overall world population growth. (I do appreciate that there may be value in continued growth but for me right now, it seems better that we make a concerted effort to shut it down until that is proven.

It would erase a creditable area of wilderness. A point in space and evolution by which we can measure ourselves as humans.

There would be other significant impacts but somewhere I need to move on. 

Despite its differences, this State is a microcosm of Australia, anywhere else in the world or its whole. Above I simply extend the thought that there must be a method of delivery of 'compassionate relief' to humans that responds better, is better focused, impacts future goals better and happens to limit impact on the areas above. I think that if we were serious as a world community and seriously believed the United Nations had a place we would put it to work to deal with cause, security and world aims. I don't believe that encouraging interminable migrations will help rectify the causes, improve security of populations or project to any worthwhile aim for the future of the earth. 

I agree. (At last)  Seeking asylum is not illegal.

At the same time there is a limit to the numbers which Australia can sustain over the long term. I do not know what that number is now or will be at any stage in our future and it may not ever be a hard number. It may instead  relate to what is acceptable to the community. 

If you look at it in this way it is clear that we cannot reasonably be signatories to any agreement which would have numbers exceed whatever that figure is or becomes. I think that both this and our past performance should have us remove ourselves from the UN agreement.

Instead we should work for a UN solution to the problems which give rise to exodus. In the first instance our resolve should be to help the mother country negotiate its way past the problem. If exodus becomes necessary we should be prepared as an international  group to create places of assured security and satisfactory conditions in nearest reasonable locations. Places where people can negotiate unrestricted enterprise, learning and relations, from which they can travel and contribute and change. Places where they are able to maintain pressure on their own country for appropriate change an from where they can eventually return.

We do countries of origin no favour by taking in their most educated and resourceful.

These places may be towns or cities. They would have satisfactory conditions for human development. They would be completely inviolable by international decree and necessary protection. National identity would be maintained but side-stepped. Applications to countries of choice could be made and travel could be managed safely. Their creation would be taken beyond the capacity of security council veto.

Naturally an exodus from France could not be housed in Lichtenstein or Monaco or Switzerland alone. While one from Indonesia may well be tolerably supported in Australia, New Guinea, Malaysia and Thailand. There would be times when the place of nearest assured security may need to expand to a wider radius. 

We all want to protect people from ravages it is possible to protect them from but the task is one which the UN should be best placed to manage equitably. We should demand that it does. We should not demand that people accept anybody into their countries. We do not need to demand that against peoples will as the advantage from varied populations is absolutely clear. Australia has benefited greatly. It is just too tame to suggest that we fear our jobs or fear change to our culture. We have benefited by migrations at reasonable pace from a wide variety of countries, jobs have been created to suit and our culture has evolved beautifully accordingly. Yet it IS our call. For myself it doesn't matter what that call is but it must be respected until it changes of its own accord. 

Hi, Ian
No, you are making the same mistake as the Labor Party, in fact you are worse because you are now talking as if there is no such thing as "universal obligations to our fellow citizens of the planet", a position that can only be arrived at by thinking we are special and able to make the rules up, without any reference to history or to others' needs.

Yes, there are borders, but borders are artificial and difficult to justify in the full history of the planet.

If the borders were not artificially established in the early 1800s and in 1901, there may be 100 million people here now, 6 nation states and four languages, and our lives would be very different, and there would be less pressure elsewhere in the world.

What makes a national border legitimate?

  • Is it "we were here first"? If so, then Aboriginal elders have the right to tell the rest of us to return to our country of origin and start again.
  • Is it "power"? If so, then the correct use of the border can only be worked out by war! If we go down that path, the future of Australia becomes very uncertain, and likely to change dramatically as numbers and economies advance and increase over time, elsewhere in the world.
  • Is it "respect"? If so, then we have to do what is necessary to earn that respect; we have to play our role as citizens of the planet, and when people are suffering and in need, we have to play our part in the alleviation of that suffering.

The UN plays an important part in allowing Australia to grow and to prosper, while other countries do not grow and prosper. We need to understand the history of our borders and not just take a snap shot at this point in time and tell the rest of the world to "bugger off and leave us alone!".

If we were not a continent as well as a nation state, as others suffer from strife, bad government, flood, earthquakes, tsunamis, we might find half a million people sitting on our border asking for help. It would be ludicrous for us to then say "sorry, can't help, you better go away, we have other things on our mind". We would have to get in there and help, and find a way to protect them, and find a new place for them to live and begin a new life.

And we better get used to thinking in this way; as sea levels rise there may be whole island nation states that have nowhere to live and looking for a new home.

Australia has to play its part.

The fact that I even need to take up this argument is because our leaders haven't done enough over the years to get these arguments listened to and understood and supported generally. They have been too willing to allow the Allan Jones's of this world to throw shit around and set the terms of debate.

I see something of your position Steve. For me, borders are for administrative purposes. Yes we all have responsibilities but all communities large or small (national or local) also have a responsibilty to themselves and their environment to strive for whatever it is that best furthers the human experience within their capability. It is not about ownership it is about integrity. 

Internal division was a small part of the cause of Labor defeat. They just got too much wrong for too long. They had to go. The NBN is a good thing, yes but there are other ways it can be achieved and other time frames. The simple expedience of increasing the percentage on other than wired connections will save greatly with negligible loss in serviceability. That will only mean less wired connection where distances are greatest. I suspect that will also be the most major change the coalition makes to the NBN apart possibly from its name.

You think Steve that the Labor party saved the day when it threw us into massive debt to fund arbitrary job making. I think it was an ill-conceived opportunity to throw money around and to pepper a few pet projects along the way. 

A little debt to ease the way over a few hurdles may be OK but the focus should be on making sure that those who come after do not have to clean up after us or pay for us.

Well, yes, I guess you can call me a Keynesianist; a bit hard for me not to be: when you were studying architecture I was studying economics (and Malcolm Turnbull was studyng law and standing for Presidency of the Student Union) and Keynes was still the big name and had been since the '30s. I was more in the post-Keynesian school. But big changes were coming, mainly from the Chicago school of economics with Milton Friedman arguing for governments to get their hands off the economy and let the competition between powerful industrialists and financiers set the terms of the economy (free-market economism), and arguing for government to stick to applying pressure through the Reserve Bank (monetarism). There was some good aspects to their argument but there were serious dangers there, as well. Keynes was put on the backburner and the 'hands-off' approach won for a long period of time. I might argue that in some respects the same argument was had out again in the GFC. The GFC happened because the hands-off approach went too far and the gluttonous key players (financiers) destroyed the concept of "value". Australia was the only western country to ride out the GFC. It was partly because of external influences but it's very likely that the return to Keynesian ideas, under Swan & his buddies, played its part. It seems unlikely, anyway, that to have austerity measures imposed would have helped. But we can agree to disagree on this.

Yep, I agree to disagree on the value of 'assistance' but I do agree on the gluttony, Steve. 

We can argue about how it is managed but if buyers were appropriately aware (and not also glutonous) it would be rejected by the market as simply anti-social.

I had better own up to that anonymous one there. You found the post it responded to if I happened to hit the wrong 'reply' Steve.

We all know we will become a republic. Almost all of us know it is the right way to go in the end. However, is there really a rush? Others have said and I agree, the Australian sentiment is Elizabethan (II) rather than monarchistic. Elizabeth II has put in an exemplary performance but all good things pass eventually. Giving it time does two other things. It gives us time to sort out the best constitutional arrangement post-monarchy and it gives those that are still staunch monarchists the grace of natural attrition.

The real differences will be negligible if we get the constitutional arrangement right and we must do that so there is no hurry. This is not a thing we need to treat in the numeric democratic way we have treat day to day management.

Scratch almost any Australian and you will not see a subject.   

You probably expect this to be picked up Steve but...a possibly simpler averaged lifestyle need not (and in my limited experience of the subject does not) equate with a simpler mind. 

I got gnarly at the time over the intervention also and for similar reasons to your own. When I looked into it there appeared to be a genuine local demand. If we seek to impose our social do-good ideas on a people that are understandably separate enough to make many of their decisions then we should just butt out. Overbearing pressure to accept or even demand interventions of this kind should be resisted but evolution and support of indigenous law is vital in the context of the social pressures on some communities.

This is something that you and I agree on, totally. The concept that indigenous communities are somehow a different 'race' with weak bodies & simple minds is nonsense and has been completely dis-proven by science. I do not support it for a moment! My point was that that concept, which had been around since settlement and used to justify crimes against humanity, was brought back in a cynical attempt to influence the election in 2007. It should have been argued against at the time.

However, I do not agree that if you can find Indigenous people in those communities who support the Intervention then it should be maintained. There have always been, throughout the history of racist government intervention, people living in those communities who could be found to say it was correct. That doesn't make it correct. If there are good outcomes, the same outcomes can be achieved using other means, without having to destroy the human rights of Indigenous communities.

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